- 20-100 a écrit:
Enfin, à t'écouter et en extrapolant ton raisonnement sur d'autres ressources que les météorites, tout le monde devrait ratisser les terrains non fermés, les exploiter de manière telles que toutes les ressources naturelles qui s'y trouvent doivent être profitables et financièrement enrichissante pour l'exploitant , quitte à tout épuiser sans penser à une gestion durable ( de toute façon l'exploitant n'est pas prpriétaire du terrain) ; et ensuite il ira voir plus loin se découvrir d'autres terrains de chasses et recommencer le cycle d'exploitattion déraisonnée, sans se préoccuper des éventuels propriétaires des terrains...
Le tout bien entendu dans un esprit de monopolisation destinée à faire grimper les prix dans le but de faire prendre conscience que c'est rare, et donc qu'à ce moment là, il est intéressant de protéger.... et toucher les royalties...
Tu vois, c'est des raisonnements comme cela qui sont appliqués en Afrique et en Indonésie, mais aussi à la pêche marine partout dans le monde; et c'est ce genre de démarche irresponsable qui défigure durablement la planète, met des espeèces en danger et creuse les écarts que l'on connait et génère des famines et des drames humains...
heureusement que tout le monde n'est pas ainsi lol
Ha mais voyons, ce n'est pas du tout ce que je propose.
Tout ce que j'ai dit c'est que la gestion des ressources est une question globale.
Je regrette mais lá c'est moi qui est le rationaliste cuirassé qui ne croit pas à la dématerialisation des meteorites. J'ai déjá vecu des situations touchés par le surnaturel mais je n'ai jamais vu un mineral s'évanouir, POUF! s'évaporer dans l'ether.
Sans doute il faudra trouver un moyen d'empêcher le morcellement des meteorites mais tu ne peux considerer les meteorites comme une ressource comme les poissons dans la mer. Ce n'est pas la même chose.
Voici le nouveau texte de Martin Altmann dans la liste anglaise:
Peter,
please allow me, that I dare to disagree, at one point only.
(haven't recovered yet).
> >At their deaths,
> >universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and
> >many private collections came into public hands this way.
> > There was no real market
> >place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices
> >were lower - comparatively.
I come to a somewhat different result at least on the field of meteorites.
Meteorites, not so surprising, were and are rare.
Most of the largest institutional meteorite collections of the world,
Acquired most of their meteorites from private persons.
New falls anyway, cause in most cases no officer of the crown war at hand,
when a meteorite decided to fall... no, more seriously, the collections grew
and some started at all by the means of donations of private collections,
but also more by the purchase of collections from private collectors and,
not so surprisingly, by the purchase from museums/geological/ meteorite
dealers! And they were regularly buying from meteorite dealers ever then.
That some collections nowadays don't or can't buy meteorites anymore,
is rather a very recent phenomenon.
Only a few examples. Chicago Field - they started with meteorites,
when they bought the complete display of Henry Augustus Ward from the
Columbian Exhibition in 1893.
Henry Ward was a commercial dealer of museum display items
and he was a meteorite dealer, the biggest of his times in USA.
After his death, in 1912 there was a bidding race between the AMNH in New
York, the Smithonian and Chicago Field to purchase Ward's private
collection.
And Chicago won and paid 1.8 million of USD (inflation adjusted) to the
heirs.
Let's stay in Chicago - the Adler Planetarium has a fine meteorite
collection. Max Adler naturally hadn't found them by his own,
he naturally purchased them and he purchased them from a dealer,
Anton Mensing.
How London in your country started?
In 1810 they purchased the Greville-collection for more than 1 million USD.
Maskelyne afterwards extended the meteorite collection excessively with more
than 200 locales - most of them he purchased from August Krantz.
August Krantz was nothing else than a commercial dealer, running a
geological warehouse (the firm still exists). All important museums were
buying from Krantz. What Koser is today for Campo, Krantz was at his times
for Pultusk.
And these were also the times, of the sometimes almost ruinous races between
the top collections of the world, where they spend really large sums to
purchase meteorites.
Fletcher - you know it buy your own, the funny anecdote how he achieved to
buy the Crumlin fall, in bribing the niece of the private owner in paying
her an organon, hoping she would persuade her uncle to sell to him.
Of course Fletcher was buying too.
Hey - who later was also in the UNESCO working group for meteorites,
where, if you read the first report, it was for them in that group a matter
of course, that there exist meteorite dealers to buy from -
Hey bought a part of the collection from a certain meteorite dealer, named
Nininger. The sources differ, some say it was half, others a third, others a
fifth of the collection (I guess it's only differently counted, by weight,
by number of specimens, by number of locales).
He paid more than 1 million USD.
I'm to lazy to look, what did the wive of Peary got from the AMNH for Cape
York? Ah let me search though...
I read 40,000$ in 1904 - inflation calculator says: is 912022.77$ in 2007
Hey dealers on the list here, hands up, when did you have your last 900,000$
sale?
Enough examples - let's recommend rather a good read, Peter
"The history of meteoritics and key meteorite collections"
By Gerald Joseph Home McCall, A. J. Bowden, Richard John Howarth
There the members could find many examples more.
In my eyes hence it's an illusion, that meteorites were in former times
mainly donated to the top collections, that there was no market and that
they were cheaper than today.
The price lists of Krantz, of Ward, of the Foote Company, of Nininger, Huss,
Zeitschel they still do exist. So we can prove that meteorites are today
much much much much much more cheaper than ever - and that solely due to the
increased activities of the private meteorite hunters and dealers.
In fact the only real historical bargain I can remember, was when NIPR in
Tokyo, purchased the collection of meteorite dealer Walter Zeitschel (the
largest private meteorite collection of these times).
The price was obscenely low.
Greetings to Walter, who is currently in hospital again.
Peter, Mark! - do you remember the trade formula Wuelfing developed for the
curators helping to estimate the right trade ratios of 2 locales, when they
swap?
Emil Cohen (the one from the cohenite) tested then whether this formula is
reflected in the actual - please forgive me, I don't know how to say it else
- how they are reflected in the market prices of his days.
For that purpose he published a compilation of all market prices in 1899,
which he had collected in that decade.
Please note also, that as these times there were only 700 meteorites known,
from these 700 meteorites Cohen lists more than 300 with their prices!
Which were avalaible for sale.
Only to compare, when I started in the early 1980ies with collecting, from
the 3000 locales less than 10% were available for sale.
So I fear, there was something like a kind of market...
Cohen's compilation - that were the prices your colleagues of these times,
the curators, had to pay and were paying.
I once made the work to turn the meteorites names of these lists into the
modern names in use and to convert the prices into today's USD-prices.
That was difficult, cause they were given in Goldmark.
That converted and inflation adjusted price compilation, Michael Blood saved
online under the link, I give below. (just search on this page for "Cohen"
it's in the middle somewhere).
IMPORTANT - IMPORTANT - IMPORTANT - IMPORTANT !!!
If you want to use it now.
My conversion factor there is WRONG !!!
Today I have more exact information. (source Statistisches Bundesamt)
The purchase power of the Goldmark suffered quite a devaluation in the very
years after Cohen had published his lists and my comparison values stem from
that later values...
So you have to MULTIPLY the GIVEN PRICE BY 5.4
To get the correct equivalents of today.
PRICE x 5.4
http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/MMT1.htmlI hope that is interesting...
Well, but more recently... when I started collecting, I had to pay up to
9$/g for a Sikhote.
Now we had several years, where you got the best quality at a standard price
of 0.3$/g.
My first Muonionalusta I had to pay with more than 20$/g, because there were
only 3 pieces known. Now the privateers dig out several tons
and if you as curator wants to have a sample in your collection, you have to
pay not more than 100$ per kilogram or you have to swap a 200times smaller
amount of your material in exchange.
Brahin - at my times not available and if, then expensive as Esquel.
Now you can have it for below 1$.
Brenham - I sincerely doubt, whether you could have bought it from a
Nininger in the 1950ies at 0.06$/g which would be the equivalent of today's
Brenham bulk price.
And please don't come with Allende, yes Allende was cheaper than today, but
it was an unique and sudden impact of a ton on the market.
In turn take the Pultusks found today in the field, they cost just 1-2$/g
more than Krantz asked right after the fall.
Kainsaz, Kainsaz had cost once 50-100$/g, when the new specimens were found,
the finders brought the prices down to 2 or 3$ a gram!
That you could buy a fresh and pristine fall at 1-3$/g like Juancheng, El
Hammami, Bassikonou, Chergach, Tamdaght, Bensour, Zag, Ben Guerir
Happened as far as I can see only twice in history.
Allende and Alfianello.
I made a Cohen-like price compilation of the years 2000 and 2001.
With the complete offers of more than 80 dealers and private offerers.
For the rare types you had to pay then 10-50 times more than today.
Peter, Mark - if you wanted to have an acapulcoite in your collection,
15-10 years ago you had the choice between a Monument Draw at an average
price of 900$ a gram (all inflation-adjusted) or an Acapulco at 1300$/g.
You saw me and Stefan selling in Ensisheim acapulcoites at 40$/g in small
slices.
Rumurutiites - you had to pay 250, 300 and up.
We're selling them now starting at 9$/g for slices, up to 25$/g if it's a
very pretty one and for the W0 and W0/1er rivalling Rumuruti as a fall,
there we asked 50$-60$, because there exist only 4 small stones on Earth.
Brachinites - have you noticed that we asked 50 Euro/g ?
That is all stuff rarer than any Moon or Martian!
Apropos lunaites - the 5 different lunaites we have, for the price we ask
for them altogether you hardly can run the McMurdo Station in Antarctica for
3 or 4 days,
but all teams from ANSMET, NIPR, Chinese Polar Research need on average more
than 6 years to find the same number and amount of lunaites.
Nuff. I don't know much about the artefacts, art, fossils, mineral market
- if the developments are there like you said, they are so,
but then you have to see, that the meteorite "market" obviously evolved
decoupled from that general evolution and in exactly the opposite direction.
The bulk from Sahara are unclassified weathered chondrites.
They are retailed to the collectors and to the curators, if they want,
at prices down to 25$/kg.
Can anybody name an example in history, where a meteorite was available at
such a price......
Peter, Mark - I'm writing that not to show what for a weisenheimer I am
and good heavens don't take it under no circumstances as an personal attack.
I'm only desperate - you know that dealer, hunter and collectors bashing you
can read everywhere in publications and in media,
I'm desperate cause so few are willing to take notice what however happened
and is happening in reality.
Because how shall we enter any meaningful discussion to find a compromise or
a solution, if we don't even know or ignore the fundamental facts?
Let me close with a thesis.
A thesis which is not keen. I say:
To acquire the complete output of new meteorite finds done by the private
side in a year and worldwide,
there are necessary not more than 10 million USD.
Off to bed now.
Martin
Trés informatif comme vous voyez...
Saludos
Sanscelerien